Better Call Saul's Patrick Fabian Breaks Down That Game-Changing Boxing Match

[Warning: The following contains spoilers for Season 6, Episode 5 of Better Call Saul, "Black and Blue." Read at your own risk!]

On Monday's Better Call Saul, the gloves quite literally went on. In an episode that also saw the triumphantly sinister return of Lalo Salamanca (Tony Dalton), the moment of the night belonged to beleaguered lawyer Howard Hamlin (Patrick Fabian), who all season has been the target of Kim (Rhea Seehorn) and Jimmy's (Bob Odenkirk) elaborately plotted professional takedown. So far their plot to ruin Howard's reputation has included planting drugs on him, using the Kettleman family to drag his name through the mud, and briefly stealing both his car and identity.

But Howard could only be kept in the dark for so long, and when he finds out (courtesy of Ed Begley Jr.'s Cliff Main, who has nothing but good intentions when he approaches Howard about his supposed drug addiction), he devises a plan of his own. He lures Jimmy to a boxing ring under the cover of night, and the two take swing after swing at each other until Jimmy's knocked out. "You've mistaken my kindness for weakness," Howard tells him, moments before meeting up with a private investigator, whom he urges to report back on Jimmy's every action. It's what six seasons of the fraught, simmering tension between Howard and Jimmy has been leading up to, with the king of namaste finally getting pushed to his breaking point.

Fabian, who delighted in the opportunity to go toe-to-toe with Odenkirk, told TV Guide that he saw the boxing match as a turning point for his character. "Howard's woken up," he explained. Fabian spoke to TV Guide about the logistics of filming the fight scene, Howard's enduring connection to Chuck McGill (Michael McKean), and how he felt about seeing Odenkirk with that spray tan. He also has a message for Howard's queer fans.

TV Guide: First of all, did anyone tell you going into the season, "Just so you know, you're going to have to beat up Bob Odenkirk at some point"?
Patrick Fabian: No, Melissa Bernstein, who directed this, she's also one of our executive producers, I think she called me at one point and said, "Call me." No actor ever wants the executive producer to leave a message saying "call me." I call her up, she goes, "We have to schedule some boxing lessons. There's a scene coming up where you may have to box." I was like, "OK!" And I still didn't know what the deal was, so I started training with Luis Moncada, [who plays] one of the Salamanca brothers. Then we got the script, and I thought, these writers are so great, headed up by Peter Gould and Vince Gilligan. Who would have thought that in Season 1, through the very first scene I had at HHM, that I would end up in the ring? These writers have always written for the story. They don't just throw something out there. The fact of the matter is, it makes sense, it's earned. Howard is literally trying to find something to say, "Can we end this? Can we stop this nonsense? Maybe you just want to hit me. So instead of throwing bowling balls at me, instead of sending hookers to my lunch, just take a swing. If you can!" And that's the thing too, right? Because I think as much as he says, "This is for you, Jimmy," it's a little bit for Howard. I think Howard wants to get a lick on him, too.

I imagine the scene was heavily choreographed. What was it like filming it?
Fabian: We would tape off the boxing ring on a soundstage, and then Luis and these other guys would go ahead and tell us how we were going to do this. Melissa Bernstein, and the writer, Allison Tatlock, knew what moments they wanted to show of the fight and why. They had blocked that out. Between the two of them, we would do the fight top to bottom with different camera angles, but they knew what they needed — certain angles, certain things. We had stunt doubles for some of the stuff. But I did get to see the fight sequence because I had to do some ADR, and 80% of it is Bob and I doing it, which is really fun. And of course, Bob is in Nobody, so he's an action star already, you know? My favorite thing was being able to remind him, "I'm sorry, Bob, script says you lose." I'm sure he hated that.

Howard and Jimmy also have very different motivations going into the fight.
Fabian: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Jimmy's at a disadvantage, because he's not a boxer, he's out of shape. It's Howard very much saying, "Come over to my side where the advantages are all mine." But I know him well enough psychologically to know that he can't resist. I set the trap really well. Does Howard really think that this is going to resolve anything? If you really think about who Howard is, I don't think he really believes that. In which case, Howard also kind of wants to hit him. Howard also set it up for his own satisfaction. He says as much after he knocks him out — "I'd like to think this'll change something, but it probably won't." He warns him, "You've mistaken my kindness for weakness." Then he goes out to the P.I, and he doesn't say, "You're done. We've resolved it, it's over." He says exactly the opposite. And that makes me go, "Oh, he was planning on coming out and saying that all along, so what's going on?" Even if he did resolve it in the boxing ring, Howard is there to win win. It's time to throw back, and I think one punch is not enough for Howard. Howard's going to end it once and for all, basically. So however that plays out, Howard is nothing but thorough.

There's a lot of comedy and bravado in the scene, but to me, it's kind of an emotional scene, too. How do you think Howard was feeling? Was there any hurt there, or is it just full-on anger towards Jimmy?
Fabian: No, I think there is hurt. I think it's a sadness. It's come to this. You've debased me to make me do this. That's just the logic of it. I mean, that's how I was thinking of Howard thinking of it. What can I do? What can appeal to Jimmy's level? Well, here's some low-hanging fruit: We'll hit each other. But the good news is Howard's doing boxing, because he was told five years ago that boxing is the way to make you fit. That's a power move for him. So it works on both levels for him, but it's sad that it comes to this. There is pain, there is sadness in it. But I think you're right, once you get in there, a bit of rage takes over both of them.

I remembered something Bob told TV Guide back in 2020 about Jimmy thinking of Howard as an extension of Chuck, which adds a whole unspoken layer to the fight. Was that on your mind at all?
Fabian: Even though Howard confessed, "Yes, I did bad stuff to you because of Chuck," but then I got him a job at Davis & Main, and then I offered him a job at HHM, and then, and then, and then… I mean, I've given him so many chances. So why is he still angry at me? Why is it? I do exemplify Chuck, the establishment, the people who follow the rules, all the people who didn't let him in the club. It's funny — yes, I did do all those things for him, but as Kim says when she hands me a new a--hole, when we set up the fund, "This is a scholarship you would never, never give Jimmy." It's one of the most brutal scenes, and Rhea Seehorn, my favorite actress ever, delivers it so well. It's a great moment, because it reveals Howard's not thinking it through, really, and still, frankly, being on the side of the guys with the rules. Every time I do, it's more of a stick in Jimmy's eye. I don't think Howard necessarily sees it like that, but there's a case to be made that that's exactly how it is.

You brought up Kim. I'm sure Howard also has some feelings about her being involved in this plan to tear him down, too.
Fabian: It doesn't surprise [him], because at the end of Season 5 he goes to her and warns her one last time, Chuck was right, and her response is to laugh at him. I don't know if you've been watching the show Better Call Saul for six seasons, but Howard Hamlin doesn't like to be laughed at.

And by Kim, of all people.
Fabian: Et tu, Brute? Are you kidding me? Whatever he thinks her extent in it is, I think it's still that she's been polluted and poisoned by Jimmy. I don't think in his wildest imagination that he would think that she would be driving the car, which indeed she seems to be doing.

Were you surprised by anything Howard did in this episode?
Fabian: The idea of, is this behavior outside of the realm of Howard? I think not. I think Howard's done great keeping a lid on everything for such a long time. He goes to therapy, and he gets more of an expansive view of how it all works. He tries to share that, and he's still getting dumped on. I can have all the namaste I want for breakfast, but if you're going to keep punching on me? Come on, man. Howard's punching back in this episode, and it's just the beginning.

Peter Gould told Entertainment Weekly before the season aired that Howard "has depths" that we haven't seen before, and that we'd find out this season what he's made of. Is the boxing what he was referring to, or are we going to get to see more of Howard's layers?
Fabian: The boxing is one thing that he's made of, but last week's episode, directed by Rhea Seehorn, written by Ann Cherkis — Ann was the writer who got me those first lines in therapy where we saw Howard's mask really slide. I mean, he talks about dreams. He talks about his wife not being well. Anybody who's ever been to therapy before knows there's those first two minutes where you're dancing, and you're talking about nothing, and then you finally drop down and just try to talk about the thing that brought you there in the first place. It turns out it's his wife. The internet was saying, "Cheryl? He's married to a Cheryl?"

By the way, in the LGBT community there was a collective, "Aw," because there was a theory going around that, hey, he has a ring, but that's all we know, and Howard dresses pretty sharp. He's a little gay in his heart, so don't worry.

I can't let you go without asking what you thought of Jimmy in costume as Howard, with the spray tan. What was your reaction to seeing that?
Fabian: You know, it's weird to see yourself. First off, way too heavy on the spray tan, and the teeth were kept in such a clownish way. However, the whole put-together, the image of the blue with the blonde hair — guess what? Howard makes pretty good choices. I have to say, this being the final season of Better Call Saul, and it's been really wonderful to be on every season, I'm gonna miss many, many things, all the people, all that stuff, but there's no doubt that I am gonna miss putting on those beautiful suits and going to work. There's no doubt.

Better Call Saul airs Mondays at 9/8c on AMC.

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